Wheels24

Civic hatch: New in every way

2012-05-17 07:48

Honda launched the superb Civic four-door hatchback in South Africa this week but, if you were expecting merely the sedan version (launched in January 2012) with a reworked backside, you’d be very wrong.

On a number of counts...

For a start, the hatch rides on a platform very different to that of the sedan, says Yoshiaki Nakamura, the genial MD of Honda SA. The fascia assembly is different and more advanced than that of the sedan and the parking brake now lives on the passenger side of what used to be called the transmission tunnel; the gear-shifter is closer to the driver.

DIESEL TOP MODEL

The 1.6 V-TEC engine of the sedan range is absent (at least for now) but the much-revised 1.8 i-VTEC (expected to be the volume seller) is waiting for your right foot and attached to either a six-speed manual or five-speed auto in either Elegance or Executive (see below) trim. The sedan range also offers lesser-specced Comfort models.

Top of the hatch range is a diesel-fuelled but very quiet, very powerful, 2.2 i-DTEC Exclusive turbodiesel that comes only with the six-speed manual box but a cabin specification level to rival that of far more expensive cars.

Honda Civic image gallery.

The 1.8 delivers 104kW at 6500rpm and 174Nm at 4300rpm and, Honda says, is more responsive at low to medium engine speeds than its predecessor as well as smoother and more refined at all engine speeds – I took it to 6000 in third gear to check. No argument...

COMMON-RAIL DIESEL

Improvements to the engine have, Honda says, resulted in a 10% cut in fuel consumption with a (combined) figure of 6.1 litres/100km and CO2 output of 146g/km listed for the Elegance six-speed manual. The engine needs 9.1 seconds to reach 100km and top speed is 212km/h.

The 2.2 diesel uses the latest common-rail diesel injection to produce 110kW at 4000rpm and peak torque of 350Nm from 2000-2750rpm. The six-speed manual transmission allows fuel consumption (Honda data) of 4.7 litres/100km and CO2 emissions of 124g/km. Launch to 100km/h takes 8.7 seconds and top speed is 216km/h.

Both models have Eco Assist technology that uses the cars’ speedometer illumination to advise on driving technique: blue at idle, under acceleration and when decelerating, green when the right foot gets gentle and blue-green when attention starts to wander.

Here are the prices (sedan prices for comparison in brackets): you can argue whether they’re high or low after reading on...

Civic 1.8 i-VTEC Elegance - R248 000 (R259 000)
Civic 1.8 i-VTEC Elegance a/t - R261 000 (R271 900)
Civic 1.8 i-VTEC Executive - R270 000 (R269 900)
Civic 1.8 i-VTEC Executive a/t - R283 000 (R282 900)
Civic 2.2 i-DTEC Exclusive - R343 800 (no sedan diesel)

Prices include a five-year or 90 000km service plan and three-year or 100 000km warranty. Service intervals set at 15 000km.

1.6 i-DTEC Elegance and Executive versions are expected in about eight months but a Sport Pack that includes front, rear and side skirts, tail hatch spoiler, illuminated entry step garnish, “sports” fuel filler lid and 18” Krypton alloy rims (extra option) is available now.

Other immediate differences between the hatch and sedan include the size and shape of the fascia ventilation slots and the main instrument panel – now with a large, round rev counter (check through the image gallery for interior shots and graphics). The more-important speedometer is still digital and still seen over the top of the steering wheel but the shape of the cowl is flatter and wider than that of the sedan.

Most of the control switches have been amended or moved and the whole centre console redesigned - for the better.

TYRE TRACKS FOLLOWED

The Civic (or Ballade, depending on the year) is celebrating its 30th year in South Africa. I’ve been around long enough to remember each of the variants over the years (this is the ninth generation, though SA jumped two of them). Some of you might remember that Honda was a sort of second string to Mercedes for many years before going solo and bringing motorcycles, marine engines, power pumps and generators together in showrooms.

The original Ballade was, for its time, an outstanding car. This its most recent descendant has certainly followed in its ancestors’ almost fossilised tyre tracks.

Manabu Nishimae, based in London as president of Honda Europe but also CEO for the Honda world region that includes South Africa, was a special guest at the Stellenbosch-based launch. He said: “Every evolution of the Civic gets a new value and the striking sports design of this one is a revolutionary evolution.”

He added that the latest version was also the first step to a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions intended to be achieved by 2020; helping to reach this target would be a smaller diesel engine for the Civic. The automaker was also, he said, working on fuel-cell, battery, hybrid and natural-gas propulsion systems to live up to its ‘Blue Skies for Our Children’ environmental mark.

You can also bet on a Civic hatch Type 'R' model.

FLAT BELLY

Less environmentally friendly, perhaps, will be Honda’s entry in October 2012 into the World Touring Cars championship to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Honda’s Suzuka racetrack with a Civic packing a 1.6 racing engine “to enhance the sport image of the car”.

Honda’s F1 history has been woven into the 2012 Civic hatch: former F1 dynamicists were brought in to tune the cars’ aero pedigree. The result is the distinctive and rather fine body shell that gives a quiet and refined ride and a 10% cut in air resistance. The car’s underbelly is flat to cut turbulence and the obedience of earlier Civics to the dictates of crosswinds, Honda says, has been corrected.

Aerodynamic efficiency, the automaker adds, is central to the Civics’ design. The horizontal brake light, (see image gallery) for example, doubles as a spoiler to manage airflow over the top of the car and the rear combination tail-light clusters have an aerodynamic function to cut off body-side airflow and reduce turbulence.

IMPROVED BACK WINDOW

Other cabin amendments include the division of the fascia into zones (that gallery again!) – a driving zone for the, er, driver that includes all instrumentation and digital read-outs and a passenger comfort zone that includes the audio controls and aircon – though both are still within easy reach of the driver.

Owners of earlier Civic hatches complained of the limited rearward vision through the post-slot back window, particularly at night. A second, lower, glass panel is now included in the hatch door (see image gallery).

Buyers expect lugging space in a hatch: the Civic complies with 477 litres of boot space (about 100 litres more than the market norm, Honda says) and 1210 litres with the rear seats folded – which they do either horizontally or vertically – the latter to accommodate tall items (think yucca plant).

The Civic is remarkably quiet on the road, at any speed. Honda attributes this to a new front suspension and stiffer rear torsion bar (the previous fault of rear bump-steer has gone) as well as fluid-filled, rather than just rubber, bushes to suppress noise, vibration and harshness and pretty much eliminate road and suspension noise.

The very direct steering system includes a shock-absorber in its column.

Seriously, this is one very, very quiet car.

DAYTIME LIGHTS

The 2.2 diesel, Honda says, is the flagship and claiming the title "performance king of diesel hot hatches" according to Graham Eagle, Honda SA’s sales and marketing director, who reckons the cars will sell about 100-plus a month on their styling, performance and high level of not-optional features.

“I think it is the most desirable Civic yet,” he added. Well, he would...

The Elegance models come with 16” alloy rims, diode daytime running lights, multifunction trip data computer, auto aircon, single CD player/radio with four speakers and iPod, auxiliary and USB connections, multifunction steering-wheel, ABS and traction/stability controls, tyre deflation warning, full package of air bags, “Magic’ folding seats (gallery again) and power adjustment and heating for the external mirrors.

The Executive range adds 17” alloy rims, front fog-lights, retractable external mirrors, aluminium pedals, six speakers dual-zone auto aircon, cruise control, leather (heatable) seats, auto wipers and headlights, power windows, leather steering wheel and rear accessory socket.

The Exclusive specification level includes a glass sunroof, a premium sound system with amplifier and sub-woofer, Bluetooth hands-free cellphone connectivity (with dedicated buttons on the steering wheel), and high-intensity discharge auto-levelling headlights with washers.

It also has a reversing camera and front parking sensors.

Civic hatchback competitors include: VW Golf, Audi A3, Mazda3, Alfa 147, BMW 1 Series, Peugeot 308 and Toyota Auris.

Comments
  • Erik - 2012-05-17 09:26

    Really?The Alfa 147?

  • Fredster - 2012-05-17 10:07

    Really new fresh concept. Just the pricing is too much, and only a service plan?

      Thando - 2012-05-17 10:22

      Yup , wonder what discounts the dealers will be giving

      Thando - 2012-05-17 10:22

      Yup , wonder what discounts the dealers will be giving

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 10:55

      Yeah - it looks a bit pricey and I nearly choked when I saw the price of the 2.2 iDTEC (R344K). But when you look a bit a closer it isn't really that out of line. Let's take a look at the 2.0 TDI Golf. Arguably the current market leader in this segment. It is priced at R316K, but a lot of optional features are included as standard on the Civic: Park Distance Control: R4.6K, Rear parking camera: R5.3K, Leather Seats: R10.5K, Xenon Lights with wipers: 9.3K, Bluetooth: R2.5K, Climatronic: R4.3K, Sound system upgrade: R10K). Add it all up and the Golf comes in at a whopping R362K! In addition, the Civic is more powerful, more fuel efficient and outputs less CO2 (for the environmentally conscious). Being newer, I expect the Civic to be a better car all round than the Golf. Puts it a bit into perspective. Oh, and it's a Honda. Which means it'll be breaking a lot less than its competitors - which means more money in your pocket in the long run.

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 10:55

      Yeah - it looks a bit pricey and I nearly choked when I saw the price of the 2.2 iDTEC (R344K). But when you look a bit a closer it isn't really that out of line. Let's take a look at the 2.0 TDI Golf. Arguably the current market leader in this segment. It is priced at R316K, but a lot of optional features are included as standard on the Civic: Park Distance Control: R4.6K, Rear parking camera: R5.3K, Leather Seats: R10.5K, Xenon Lights with wipers: 9.3K, Bluetooth: R2.5K, Climatronic: R4.3K, Sound system upgrade: R10K). Add it all up and the Golf comes in at a whopping R362K! In addition, the Civic is more powerful, more fuel efficient and outputs less CO2 (for the environmentally conscious). Being newer, I expect the Civic to be a better car all round than the Golf. Puts it a bit into perspective. Oh, and it's a Honda. Which means it'll be breaking a lot less than its competitors - which means more money in your pocket in the long run.

      raath - 2012-05-17 12:14

      I would pay the extra money because the Golf is a lot better looking

      raath - 2012-05-17 12:14

      I would pay the extra money because the Golf is a lot better looking

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 14:26

      @raath: Tastes differ. But it is pretty clear that Honda put a lot more effort into making the Civic look a lot more distinctive and stylish while VW went for a more conservative design. While I don't think the Golf's looks detract from the desirability of the car, I don't think they do a lot for it either, so I don't think there is much of a basis to charge a premium for them.

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 14:26

      @raath: Tastes differ. But it is pretty clear that Honda put a lot more effort into making the Civic look a lot more distinctive and stylish while VW went for a more conservative design. While I don't think the Golf's looks detract from the desirability of the car, I don't think they do a lot for it either, so I don't think there is much of a basis to charge a premium for them.

      raath - 2012-05-17 14:38

      The problem with "more distinctive" is that although it is great now, it will age quickly, especially when design trends take an unexpected turn, and that will have a serious impact on resale value.

      raath - 2012-05-17 14:38

      The problem with "more distinctive" is that although it is great now, it will age quickly, especially when design trends take an unexpected turn, and that will have a serious impact on resale value.

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 15:22

      @raath: Like what happened with the 8th gen Civic hatch? I remember these same discussions 6 years ago. All the naysayers said the shape will age in 6 months, no one will want to buy it second hand, resale value will go to the dogs etc etc. Yet that didn't happen. The 8th gen Civic is still an exceptionally good looking car that is highly rated in terms of looks and with decent retail value (not quite up to VW levels, but that is a long discussion and quite frankly has nothing to do with car looks but more a specific strategy on the part of VW to protect their second hand car values). PS: Woah looks like I hit a nerve with some oversensitive VW fan there. I am a bit mystified by all the sudden thumbs down on my first reply above. Looks like some troll is doing their usual multiple vote thing again. sigh. PPS: I just noticed the Civic hatch comes with a sunroof as standard as well. Add another R6.5K to the price of the Golf...

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 15:22

      @raath: Like what happened with the 8th gen Civic hatch? I remember these same discussions 6 years ago. All the naysayers said the shape will age in 6 months, no one will want to buy it second hand, resale value will go to the dogs etc etc. Yet that didn't happen. The 8th gen Civic is still an exceptionally good looking car that is highly rated in terms of looks and with decent retail value (not quite up to VW levels, but that is a long discussion and quite frankly has nothing to do with car looks but more a specific strategy on the part of VW to protect their second hand car values). PS: Woah looks like I hit a nerve with some oversensitive VW fan there. I am a bit mystified by all the sudden thumbs down on my first reply above. Looks like some troll is doing their usual multiple vote thing again. sigh. PPS: I just noticed the Civic hatch comes with a sunroof as standard as well. Add another R6.5K to the price of the Golf...

  • Ebon - 2012-05-17 10:49

    I was a touch disappointed with the new sedan. Not a bad car at all, but no longer the clear market leader in its segment - and most likely not a car of the year candidate. However this new hatch is a completely different story. Stunning car.

      craig.b.johnston.7 - 2012-05-17 13:41

      the sedan seemed like such a slapped together project that i wouldn`t even trade in my 2006 civic in for it.They clearly put much more effort into the hatch and i i think they`ve done an excellent job.I so flippin wish they`d give the civic a bit more guts now like the old days.I`m praying the type r comes with a turbo this time.High performance with hondas bullet proof engines would sell like hot cakes.

      craig.b.johnston.7 - 2012-05-17 13:41

      the sedan seemed like such a slapped together project that i wouldn`t even trade in my 2006 civic in for it.They clearly put much more effort into the hatch and i i think they`ve done an excellent job.I so flippin wish they`d give the civic a bit more guts now like the old days.I`m praying the type r comes with a turbo this time.High performance with hondas bullet proof engines would sell like hot cakes.

  • ayoub.banderker - 2012-05-17 13:53

    Pity one cannot add options to the lesser models. Bluetooth should be standard across the range now. Just drove the 1.8 Executive auto, not bad at all, but Honda need to provide additional options to SA market. That said, I'll wait for the Type R, lets hope they don't mess it up and really take the likes of ST, GTi, OPC, etc on.....my last Type R was good, but lacked torque and was a harsh ride on our not-so-smooth roads....

      Malebo - 2012-05-18 13:07

      Don't hold your breath. The TypeR is highly unlikely to exceed 160kw. One of the head honchos at Honda said that they're kind of looking at GTi levels of performance, but with more emphasis on handling and dynamics. I'm still baffled how/why Honda chooses this route, I'm sure they've got their reasons, but these are the guys that developed a 177kw, naturally aspirated 2.0l in the S2000, donkey years ago. Go figure

      Malebo - 2012-05-18 13:07

      Don't hold your breath. The TypeR is highly unlikely to exceed 160kw. One of the head honchos at Honda said that they're kind of looking at GTi levels of performance, but with more emphasis on handling and dynamics. I'm still baffled how/why Honda chooses this route, I'm sure they've got their reasons, but these are the guys that developed a 177kw, naturally aspirated 2.0l in the S2000, donkey years ago. Go figure

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 17:27

      If you have looked at the values espoused by Japanese engineering it would probably make a bit more sense. They are all about building the perfect balance - not too much and not too little, but just right. Honda also seem to be a company obsessed with efficiency - refusing to waste anything. They want the perfectly balanced car. Not the car with the biggest KW numbers for bragging rights. The S2000 was a rear wheel drive car with a very low centre of gravity and superb balance. It could handle a bit more power than a front wheel drive hatchback. I was quite interested a while back to see that for a front wheel drive car the size of a Civic or Golf, 150 kW is the most you can use up to about 100km/h before you lose traction. It's basically the limit of physics. It certainly explains why both VW and Honda in particular have stayed clear of the all out power war. Other brands choose different paths to follow, and like to make engines with huge outputs because that impresses some people, even if that never translates into any usable performance. For example 191KW from the Mazda 3 MPS. Awesome power but doesn't really help it very much. I guess in the end each unto their own. I like the Honda philosophy which is probably why I like their cars. Other people prefer different philosophies. Remember: Different strokes for different folks.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 17:27

      If you have looked at the values espoused by Japanese engineering it would probably make a bit more sense. They are all about building the perfect balance - not too much and not too little, but just right. Honda also seem to be a company obsessed with efficiency - refusing to waste anything. They want the perfectly balanced car. Not the car with the biggest KW numbers for bragging rights. The S2000 was a rear wheel drive car with a very low centre of gravity and superb balance. It could handle a bit more power than a front wheel drive hatchback. I was quite interested a while back to see that for a front wheel drive car the size of a Civic or Golf, 150 kW is the most you can use up to about 100km/h before you lose traction. It's basically the limit of physics. It certainly explains why both VW and Honda in particular have stayed clear of the all out power war. Other brands choose different paths to follow, and like to make engines with huge outputs because that impresses some people, even if that never translates into any usable performance. For example 191KW from the Mazda 3 MPS. Awesome power but doesn't really help it very much. I guess in the end each unto their own. I like the Honda philosophy which is probably why I like their cars. Other people prefer different philosophies. Remember: Different strokes for different folks.

  • shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-17 14:43

    You could get a B Class for less than the price of this diesel and for not too much more, a C Class (one segment up) or for much less a Kia Optima or Hyundai Sonata!! Japanese cars are so expensive.

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 17:51

      I would have to argue that your statement is intentionally somewhat misleading. You cannot get a comparable Merc B class for a similar price to this Civic. While the cheapest B class starts at just over R300K it has a smaller, less powerful engine than the Civic 1.8l petrol engine, and is very stingy on standard equipment - comparable to the R248K Civic. The diesel B class comes in at R365K, also with a less powerful diesel engine and is still missing a few standard features easily pushing the price up to R400K. Even the cheapest C Class is still R20K more than the most expensive Civic and misses several features. When you stop to think about it, your argument makes no sense. On the one hand you are quite ok with a Merc costing a whole lot more than a Honda (since after all, as everyone knows Merc is a *premium* brand), but you have a problem with a Honda costing more than a Kia or Hyundai? A little bit inconsistent wouldn't you say? Compare apples with apples. The B Class targets a completely different market to the Civic, just as the Sonata and Optima do on the other end of the scale. Yes, the Civic has got expensive. But hell it also has a lot of standard kit and is a fantastic car. Would I like it to be cheaper? Of course. But is it realistic to expect cheaper considering what the competition are doing? Not really.

      Ebon - 2012-05-17 17:51

      I would have to argue that your statement is intentionally somewhat misleading. You cannot get a comparable Merc B class for a similar price to this Civic. While the cheapest B class starts at just over R300K it has a smaller, less powerful engine than the Civic 1.8l petrol engine, and is very stingy on standard equipment - comparable to the R248K Civic. The diesel B class comes in at R365K, also with a less powerful diesel engine and is still missing a few standard features easily pushing the price up to R400K. Even the cheapest C Class is still R20K more than the most expensive Civic and misses several features. When you stop to think about it, your argument makes no sense. On the one hand you are quite ok with a Merc costing a whole lot more than a Honda (since after all, as everyone knows Merc is a *premium* brand), but you have a problem with a Honda costing more than a Kia or Hyundai? A little bit inconsistent wouldn't you say? Compare apples with apples. The B Class targets a completely different market to the Civic, just as the Sonata and Optima do on the other end of the scale. Yes, the Civic has got expensive. But hell it also has a lot of standard kit and is a fantastic car. Would I like it to be cheaper? Of course. But is it realistic to expect cheaper considering what the competition are doing? Not really.

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-17 18:40

      The point is that you can move up one segment by buying the Hyundai or Kia mentioned rather than buying this diesel. And everyone knows that those come with everything and has features the civic doesn't. That was my argument. Merc IS a premium brand and my point was that you can get a premium brand for less. Fine, you might not get all the standard equipment but what you get is a premium car with premium materials and excellent engineering. I highly doubt that the Civic can match the quality of the B Class. (And yes, I know that they do not compete in the same segment but that's not my point).

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-17 18:40

      The point is that you can move up one segment by buying the Hyundai or Kia mentioned rather than buying this diesel. And everyone knows that those come with everything and has features the civic doesn't. That was my argument. Merc IS a premium brand and my point was that you can get a premium brand for less. Fine, you might not get all the standard equipment but what you get is a premium car with premium materials and excellent engineering. I highly doubt that the Civic can match the quality of the B Class. (And yes, I know that they do not compete in the same segment but that's not my point).

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-17 18:47

      And by the way, Honda is not a premium brand so the asking price is not justified. So yes, it's okay if the Merc costs more but not okay if the Honda does. If the hatch's interior quality is similar to that of the sedan (which most journalists say feel like hard plastic and that it does not have a quality feel) then the price is definitely not worth it.

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-17 18:47

      And by the way, Honda is not a premium brand so the asking price is not justified. So yes, it's okay if the Merc costs more but not okay if the Honda does. If the hatch's interior quality is similar to that of the sedan (which most journalists say feel like hard plastic and that it does not have a quality feel) then the price is definitely not worth it.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 09:53

      Shafiek, you are clearly a brand bigot who has not driven any Hondas, or sat in the new Civic - hatch or Sedan. Which pretty much sums up why your opinion is foolish. No one here is arguing that the Civic is a "premium" offering in the sense that Merc defines premium. The fact is that there are varying levels of premium, and the Civic sits somewhere on that ladder near a Golf, above the likes of Hyundai/Kia, but below Merc/BMW/Audi. And the prices reflects this. If the Civic price was comparable to that of a Merc, you may have a point. But it is not. I already demonstrated as much above. Like I said above, the diesel Civic seems damn expensive. But when you look at the feature list (*it has everything*) and compare it with its actual competitors (let's call them semi premium c-segment hatchbacks) like the Golf its price suddenly makes sense.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 09:53

      Shafiek, you are clearly a brand bigot who has not driven any Hondas, or sat in the new Civic - hatch or Sedan. Which pretty much sums up why your opinion is foolish. No one here is arguing that the Civic is a "premium" offering in the sense that Merc defines premium. The fact is that there are varying levels of premium, and the Civic sits somewhere on that ladder near a Golf, above the likes of Hyundai/Kia, but below Merc/BMW/Audi. And the prices reflects this. If the Civic price was comparable to that of a Merc, you may have a point. But it is not. I already demonstrated as much above. Like I said above, the diesel Civic seems damn expensive. But when you look at the feature list (*it has everything*) and compare it with its actual competitors (let's call them semi premium c-segment hatchbacks) like the Golf its price suddenly makes sense.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 10:15

      @Shafiek: case in point: "And everyone knows that those come with everything and has features the civic doesn't" Name one.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 10:15

      @Shafiek: case in point: "And everyone knows that those come with everything and has features the civic doesn't" Name one.

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-18 14:54

      @Ebon, the only brand bigot here seems like you. You have commented on everyone saying bad things about the price of the civic or the car itself. You'd swear you are getting paid to defend it. In that case, you seem foolish. And yes I've driven both a Jazz and a Civic sedan, however the previous generation models not these new ones and all I can say is that they are not class leading. Not bad, but not worth the money.

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-18 14:54

      @Ebon, the only brand bigot here seems like you. You have commented on everyone saying bad things about the price of the civic or the car itself. You'd swear you are getting paid to defend it. In that case, you seem foolish. And yes I've driven both a Jazz and a Civic sedan, however the previous generation models not these new ones and all I can say is that they are not class leading. Not bad, but not worth the money.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 17:13

      @Shafiek: I have commented on statements I disagree with. That is called debating. As far as I know that is kind of the point of these forums is it not? I cannot see how you possibly misconstrue that as brand bigotry. Yes, I LIKE the Honda Brand. Maybe you could even call me a fan. But at no point have I gone and baselessly denigrated another brand. And before you get away with claiming I am just spouting silly biased rhetoric, read my first comment about the price again: I specifically state that I think it is very expensive. However I then proceed to analyse it and find that the knee jerk response that many (myself included) have felt is actually a bit misleading. I back it up with figures which, although some people don't seem to "like", none have been able to refute. Facts are facts, and this one is simple: Although the Civic is pretty darned expensive, it is in line with the competition. Certainly I think that is far better than simply making sweeping generalisations like: "everyone knows that the Sonata has a ton of features missing in the Civic". Lol. You couldn't even find one such feature. Or your latest gem: "The previous Civic is not class leading". You happily exaggerate statements from motoring journals about the "poor" quality of the Civic sedan interior (which it isn't btw, it's decent albeit not class leading) yet forget the huge praise the previous Civic won, eg Car of the Year, Car Magazine (and others) rating top in its class etc etc.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 17:13

      @Shafiek: I have commented on statements I disagree with. That is called debating. As far as I know that is kind of the point of these forums is it not? I cannot see how you possibly misconstrue that as brand bigotry. Yes, I LIKE the Honda Brand. Maybe you could even call me a fan. But at no point have I gone and baselessly denigrated another brand. And before you get away with claiming I am just spouting silly biased rhetoric, read my first comment about the price again: I specifically state that I think it is very expensive. However I then proceed to analyse it and find that the knee jerk response that many (myself included) have felt is actually a bit misleading. I back it up with figures which, although some people don't seem to "like", none have been able to refute. Facts are facts, and this one is simple: Although the Civic is pretty darned expensive, it is in line with the competition. Certainly I think that is far better than simply making sweeping generalisations like: "everyone knows that the Sonata has a ton of features missing in the Civic". Lol. You couldn't even find one such feature. Or your latest gem: "The previous Civic is not class leading". You happily exaggerate statements from motoring journals about the "poor" quality of the Civic sedan interior (which it isn't btw, it's decent albeit not class leading) yet forget the huge praise the previous Civic won, eg Car of the Year, Car Magazine (and others) rating top in its class etc etc.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 17:56

      I just noticed these gems too (when you talk about the B Class comparison): "I highly doubt that the Civic can match the quality of the B Class" Have you been living in a cave? It was only very recently that Merc managed to regain top spot in the quality stakes (quality as measured by quality surveys) from.. wait for it... Honda! Honda are one of the top quality car manufacturers there are, topping most "premium" brands. If the B class is of higher quality than a Civic, the difference is marginal, and it is quite likely that if any car is of higher quality than the Merc, it will be a Honda. "you might not get all the standard equipment (in the B Class) but what you get is a premium car with premium materials and excellent engineering" Honda is well renowned for their engineering excellence. The difference between a B Class and a Honda is more about luxury and "perceived" quality than real quality and engineering excellence.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 17:56

      I just noticed these gems too (when you talk about the B Class comparison): "I highly doubt that the Civic can match the quality of the B Class" Have you been living in a cave? It was only very recently that Merc managed to regain top spot in the quality stakes (quality as measured by quality surveys) from.. wait for it... Honda! Honda are one of the top quality car manufacturers there are, topping most "premium" brands. If the B class is of higher quality than a Civic, the difference is marginal, and it is quite likely that if any car is of higher quality than the Merc, it will be a Honda. "you might not get all the standard equipment (in the B Class) but what you get is a premium car with premium materials and excellent engineering" Honda is well renowned for their engineering excellence. The difference between a B Class and a Honda is more about luxury and "perceived" quality than real quality and engineering excellence.

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-18 18:00

      Well Ebon, based on your comments, it doesn't seem like you merely LIKE Honda. You seem Honda obsessed. When did I say this exactly: "everyone knows that the Sonata has a ton of features missing in the Civic". You use quotation marks yet I did not say that exactly. By the way, the Kia Optima has heated and cooling electric seats with memory function; there's just one for your satisfaction. "Debating" with you seems pointless in any case now. The fact that most people are saying it's pricey and that you can get other bigger or better cars for that money says a lot. Like you said in your reply to Malebo, each unto their own.

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-18 18:00

      Well Ebon, based on your comments, it doesn't seem like you merely LIKE Honda. You seem Honda obsessed. When did I say this exactly: "everyone knows that the Sonata has a ton of features missing in the Civic". You use quotation marks yet I did not say that exactly. By the way, the Kia Optima has heated and cooling electric seats with memory function; there's just one for your satisfaction. "Debating" with you seems pointless in any case now. The fact that most people are saying it's pricey and that you can get other bigger or better cars for that money says a lot. Like you said in your reply to Malebo, each unto their own.

      Ebon - 2012-05-21 10:44

      Shafiek, I was paraphrasing your argument, ie taking all your comments and summing them up into one brief, succint sentence that captures the essence of what you were saying. If you meant something other than what I put, then kindly clarify rather than nitpicking about whether I got the exact phrasing you used. And again, since you seem to have trouble reading, I reiterate: I DO think the Civic is pricey. The exact words I used, before you even made your first inane comment was: "I nearly choked when I saw the price of the 2.2 iDTEC (R344K)" Try figuring out what I am actually saying before you put fingers to keyboard next time.

      Ebon - 2012-05-21 10:58

      "By the way, the Kia Optima has heated and cooling electric seats with memory function; there's just one for your satisfaction." First off, you claimed (and I will be careful to quote your exact words here) "everyone knows that *those* come with everything". So my challenge to you was to find one feature in both of "those" that is missing in the Civic. So you come up with a feature that the Optima has, but is not in the Sonata. So you still need to find "just one" feature. The bottom line is that you cannot substantiate your initial insinuation - namely that the Sonata/Kia couple beat the Civic (2.2 DTEC) in terms of standard features because it simply is not true. You made that statement off the cuff based on your preconceptions that "Japanese cars are so expensive". You never actually bothered to take a look at why. If you really take the time to examine the standard features list, there is not much in it. The Civic has an astounding list of features, as do the Optima and Sonata. And yes there are a few differences here and there (for example the Civic lacks, compared to the Optima, electrically adjustable seats with memory function, but has the sunroof, full leather interior and electrically retractable side mirrors as standard). On aggregate though, I don't think either can claim their list of standard features to be an advantage. Which was my original point in this silly comparison that you tried to make.

      shafiek.davids.5 - 2012-05-21 16:34

      The fact is that you can buy the Hyundai or Kia, thus moving one segment up, with all the features you could need and want for a considerably lower price than this diesel (almost R40000 less). So no, the comparison was by no means silly. What is silly is your persistence in commenting against everyone who has anything 'bad' to say about the Civic.

  • Erik - 2012-05-18 11:37

    In my opinion I think the diesel Civic isn't a bad buy at all considering the standard features but the 1.8 Civic pricetag isnt very convincing at all.Buying the 1.8 Civic can be justified if you as buyer decided that you specifically want to buy into this segment and that you have saved money for one of the 1.8 variants. However I do think that buyers of these hatches are the average salary earner in this country and with our below average economy I think the majority of people will spend their money elsewhere.In previous posts there were debated about different segments,I think the average South African would like to stretch their buck and will buy into a higher market if the price is right ( example why drive a small expensive hatch if you can have a simular priced bigger sedan?)I think Honda are a bit optimistic about the 1.8 Civic pricing.Taking nothing away from Honda,their great cars.Now I know some people will crucify me for what I am about to say but I think the Koreans have come to the aid of many people in this country.Why purchase the 1.8 Civic if you can have a Kia Cerato at about R215 000.R70 000 cheaper than the top civic 1.8 and has all the features as standard too.Why the price gap?Quality you say?Quality should be justified by your paying other wise honda quality can be justified a million rand a civic.The Civic might make better financial sense pre-owned.If I saved up for this Honda yes I will buy it but I wont stretch my budget for it.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 14:45

      Take nothing away from it, the Cerato, at it's price is a great buy. But the Civic is a better car. Take them both for a test and then tell me you can't tell the difference. At the end of the day the choice of cars for most people are about wants versus needs. A Cerato has most of what you need in a car, but there are many additional qualities one would probably want in it. It's just a question of price. The Civic offers a lot of "nice to haves" that aren't really needed, but for people with a bit of extra money may be seen to be worthwhile. Exactly the same when you start comparing a Merc B class to a Civic. It's a nicer car, but it costs more. The key is finding a balance between spending your money on nice-to-haves and wasting your money on stuff you don't need. Personally I need at least a Polo Vivo. I can probably afford a BMW 320i without too much difficulty. I chose a Civic (previous model) because I believe it to be a good compromise between the two. The result is I have a car that I enjoy, but I also have good financial stability. Most of my peers drive more prestigious cars than me, but live in crappy houses and are up to their eyeballs in debt. One thing I would never do is stretch my budget to buy a car. It is simply a stupid financial decision that will only leave you poor in the end.

      Ebon - 2012-05-18 14:45

      Take nothing away from it, the Cerato, at it's price is a great buy. But the Civic is a better car. Take them both for a test and then tell me you can't tell the difference. At the end of the day the choice of cars for most people are about wants versus needs. A Cerato has most of what you need in a car, but there are many additional qualities one would probably want in it. It's just a question of price. The Civic offers a lot of "nice to haves" that aren't really needed, but for people with a bit of extra money may be seen to be worthwhile. Exactly the same when you start comparing a Merc B class to a Civic. It's a nicer car, but it costs more. The key is finding a balance between spending your money on nice-to-haves and wasting your money on stuff you don't need. Personally I need at least a Polo Vivo. I can probably afford a BMW 320i without too much difficulty. I chose a Civic (previous model) because I believe it to be a good compromise between the two. The result is I have a car that I enjoy, but I also have good financial stability. Most of my peers drive more prestigious cars than me, but live in crappy houses and are up to their eyeballs in debt. One thing I would never do is stretch my budget to buy a car. It is simply a stupid financial decision that will only leave you poor in the end.

  • enrico.dagama - 2012-05-18 21:35

    The 2.2 diesel, Honda says, is the flagship and claiming the title "performance king of diesel hot hatches" - I don't think so. Spend a little extra and get a Golf VI GTi preferably the DSG, so worth it.

      Ebon - 2012-05-21 09:54

      Last time I checked the Golf GTI was not a diesel...

      Thando - 2012-05-21 13:59

      DSG is a time bomb - whats the cost to replace it again ?

  • Faizie - 2012-05-21 08:19

    So Lenasia

  • pages:
  • 1